Marketing attribution maturity
Andy Schneider, 51黑料不打烊 Solutions Consultant (Marketo Measure), and Ian Michels, 51黑料不打烊 Marketo evangelist, discuss how their marketing attribution conversations and experiences with customers. This conversation discusses how MOPs teams go from no attribution reporting to how Fortune 100 companies are using Marketo Measure.
Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:43:11Speaker 1All right, Andy, thanks for joining. On another evangelist talk market, a measure evangelist talks. We were kind of collaborating before this, and today we鈥檙e really going to dive into the maturity of attribution. You know, you have great experience of talking with customers who may not be doing attribution and are looking for market of measure to help solve it or maybe they鈥檙e lightweight doing attribution through their automation platform or through just general sales force, like 1 to 1 first touch campaign or last touch campaign in Salesforce.
00:00:43:13 - 00:01:00:02Speaker 1And so we鈥檙e going to talk about we鈥檙e going to talk about the maturity of that. We know if you鈥檙e a small company, maybe Salesforce or Marketo, engage can be the answer for you and then where we go from this conversation. So thanks for joining for another eventual start.
00:01:00:04 - 00:01:09:29Speaker 2My pleasure. I鈥檒l say my my own personal maturity is not very high as a human being, but as far as attribution goes, I can speak to a higher level, I think there.
00:01:10:01 - 00:01:12:02Speaker 1That鈥檚 right. I wouldn鈥檛 ask you anything.
00:01:12:04 - 00:01:19:27Speaker 2So I鈥檓 the court jester amongst the CEOs, so I know what you鈥檙e getting.
00:01:20:00 - 00:01:42:27Speaker 1Glad that we prefaced with that. So anything else that said outside of measure just know that got All right so my background being within 51黑料不打烊 Consulting and now within the TAM organization, I鈥檝e lived and breathed within Marketo for five or six years now of how do you set up your programs, How do you make sure your tracking source and really drawing back to that.
00:01:42:27 - 00:02:08:22Speaker 1And so, you know, there鈥檚 plenty of companies I鈥檓 sure you鈥檝e even experience of curious to hear the number of customers that you鈥檝e spoken to that are just doing zero attribution, which I鈥檓 always surprised by. Like there鈥檚 just then when we when we say that, when we say like zero attribution, meaning like they鈥檙e not even doing like lead source attribution or like tying back to first touch or last touch, like they literally just don鈥檛 have it infrastructure.
00:02:08:22 - 00:02:20:15Speaker 1They鈥檙e not sure. Because, I mean, you鈥檝e been doing visible talks for ten years or whatever. Like how like how many customers were kind of experiencing that?
00:02:20:18 - 00:02:54:13Speaker 2Yeah, I think, you know, and I had a very short lived experience being a CEO of a company myself, which never actually went profitable or really even finished the whole designing and releasing a product phase. But it was a fun experience, you know, folly of youth, what have you. And I knew and we knew at that point that like, hey, you know, we鈥檙e our ad spend is so disorganized and limited that like investing in an attribution tool just seems like a step much, much, much further into the future.
00:02:54:19 - 00:03:20:03Speaker 2And this is coming for me now as someone who, you know, basically advocates for like, why would it make sense to spend a single dollar on something if if that dollar could potentially just, you know, it鈥檚 like a lottery system with like about the same amount of returns that you can expect. But I do have to sympathize with when I hear people say that, like we are literally just like building, you know, the ship right now and we don鈥檛 even know what we need.
00:03:20:03 - 00:03:38:15Speaker 2We don鈥檛 know what connects where we understand the logic of if you spend money, you should know if it works or not. But sometimes even that is like a process to build out of. Like we don鈥檛 even know, like what spending money is. And we鈥檙e like, So I, I guess one of my personal goals is to try to like to listen a little bit more empathetically.
00:03:38:15 - 00:03:59:09Speaker 2When I hear someone say we鈥檙e not actually mature enough yet because so many times I hear that and I don鈥檛 think people give themselves enough credit for how mature they actually are And as I know, I鈥檓 going off on a tangent here, but I mean, maybe as a working premise here, I think when we think about maturity, there are three different tenants to that.
00:03:59:12 - 00:04:22:27Speaker 2There鈥檚 maturity of your ad spend. So like you may think you鈥檙e an immature marketer, but if you鈥檙e spending, you know, five, six, seven figures annually on, you know, digital ads, that鈥檚 a mature spend strategy. You may not be mature and how you鈥檙e supporting and optimizing that spend, but that is, you know, you鈥檙e already playing in the big leagues when it comes to like the dollars you鈥檙e investing.
00:04:23:00 - 00:04:52:10Speaker 2That鈥檚 one point in maturity. So aware of that. Second thing is the maturity of your reporting technologies, which I think does kind of get back to what you were saying around like, you know, Salesforce reports and, you know, more primitive reports inside. Maybe your marketing automation tool, like not everybody has a buy tool, not everybody has, you know, a fluent understanding of how to build out custom reports, even maybe they just need out of the box stuff that comes with a marketing automation tool.
00:04:52:13 - 00:05:17:15Speaker 2That鈥檚 something to factor in as well. And the third and final one is I think the maturity and this is maybe the most important one to make sure you get everything else right of your mentality, like being smart enough to realize that like, hey, we shouldn鈥檛 be, you know, blindly throwing money into different ad campaigns without any feedback loop of if this is actually working or if it鈥檚 not.
00:05:17:15 - 00:05:37:10Speaker 2So that鈥檚 hopefully the easy one that everyone watching this is on board with. The two other ones are the ones that I think are also worth considering is like, give yourself, you know, maybe a little bit more credit than you are right now. You may feel immature just because you鈥檙e lost, but that鈥檚 what solutions are for. Solutions are to help get you found.
00:05:37:13 - 00:05:48:22Speaker 2But just because you know, you don鈥檛 feel like you know everything and have used everything, that鈥檚 just that鈥檚 just, you know, you just need help. That鈥檚 not a lack of maturity, though, I would say.
00:05:48:25 - 00:06:14:23Speaker 1Yeah, yeah. I think that鈥檚 a good call that like, you know, when you start hitting those higher numbers of of ad spend and now especially with the removal of third party cookies like there鈥檚 a limitation of what you can draw back to and it will get into a little bit. But that鈥檚 the importance of first party cookies and buying a tool that can do that or having or creating your own to be able to track that.
00:06:14:25 - 00:06:57:15Speaker 1But, you know, obviously that鈥檚 what Measure does, and I think that was one of the major value add so early on was that first party cookie. But let me drive a little bit into the maturity piece from what we just discussed. So that early stage, hey, we have a marketing automation platform and or, or and we have a MOPS person and I get I鈥檝e worked with Monster go like you鈥檙e drowning and like all the other ask of you because you鈥檙e trying to just you鈥檙e you鈥檙e managing an entire system that that data then is being transformed and flowing into your CRM sales is using it like there鈥檚 a lot on your plate but it is so
00:06:57:15 - 00:07:40:00Speaker 1crucial to just have the base attribution of first touch, last touch. And that again, that鈥檚 where Marketo engage early on was so valuable because not many tools were even doing that. Now, not many marketing automation platforms had access to opportunities to be able to even say this was the first touch and this was the last touch like. And so it was one of those where just buying, getting a Marketo engaged was so helpful and that in the early stages and then the proper setup and having just general source identification from that and even if the like, if you think about it even now with the third party cookies going away like Marketo Engage would still
00:07:40:00 - 00:08:00:05Speaker 1be able to track that. This came from a Google ad pick up based upon how you set up your campaign structure. Like if it鈥檚 still be able to get you that data to be able to report back to that. And if you鈥檙e spending five six figures like that鈥檚 great, that鈥檚 what you need to know because all that it should be top of funnel metrics, which is really your first touch engagement.
00:08:00:06 - 00:08:12:24Speaker 1Right? And so just being able to understand that as an early stage of like, hey, this is our main spend is through our ads, that鈥檚 that鈥檚 a quick win just to know those metrics right then and there, right?
00:08:12:27 - 00:08:38:22Speaker 2Yep. And it鈥檚 I mean, it鈥檚 another interesting thing I am thinking here is that like, you know, the words you鈥檙e using and the questions that you鈥檙e asking and answering, those are simple sounding questions that are not necessarily simple to answer, like I may need to, you know, whatever I have a I need to visit my my relatives over the holidays in Michigan or something like that.
00:08:38:22 - 00:09:05:06Speaker 2You know, that鈥檚 pretty simple. Like, you know, I鈥檓 just go over it. But I need like a advanced aerospace aeronautic devised turboprop or whatever jet engine with like space drive tech. I mean, you crazy, you know, electrical engineering marvels that couldn鈥檛 have been envisioned a hundred years ago, like that. You know, there鈥檚 there鈥檚 maturity, I guess, that actually devises the ability to answer that.
00:09:05:06 - 00:09:25:18Speaker 2And you鈥檙e talking about mops as well. It鈥檚 like, you know, basically if you need to get to, you know, to Michigan or something by, you know, the next week, mops is having to build you like a tricycle basically to do that. If attribution is your ultimate goal versus just hopping on a plane and doing it correctly and saving their time and sanity and things like that.
00:09:25:18 - 00:09:42:13Speaker 2So I think because people have simple questions, they often will feel that like they should be using like simplistic tools to get them to answers. And of course, I don鈥檛 think you would agree with that either.
00:09:42:16 - 00:10:06:04Speaker 1Yeah, but I think in that use case, just to put a visualization into that, I think a lot of people just settle for the CRM data to be able to answer that question. Right? So that鈥檚, that鈥檚 the tricycle piece and that鈥檚 it鈥檚 hard to say like Salesforce or Dynamics is a tricycle. Those these are very complex systems, but when it comes to attribution, it鈥檚 not the it鈥檚 not the airline that you need to be taking.
00:10:06:04 - 00:10:31:18Speaker 1Right. It it either way, even if you鈥檙e using those systems, they鈥檙e going to sell you a different attribution type of model or product within their suite of products that only fits within their confines of what they can offer you, which is campaign specific, which takes us to that next stage right where you start. We鈥檙e we鈥檙e going to lose some of the data from our ad platforms.
00:10:31:21 - 00:10:57:11Speaker 1But the beauty of measure is the integration with these platforms to be able to be able to understand the the all the ad, the ad spend, the keywords, search terms, like all this metadata that is potentially lost is now but is still contained within our integrations. And so we can actually be able to track that back to a few things, which is really nice.
00:10:57:13 - 00:11:20:06Speaker 2Yeah. And, and this is like I mean, this is not of course, you know, there鈥檚 a lot of complex things you can do within the constraints of a CRM. I mean, I kind of think we鈥檙e service like it鈥檚, it鈥檚 almost like Home Depot, like there鈥檚 so many different screws and bolts and glues and paints and raw building materials, and you can build so much out of that.
00:11:20:08 - 00:11:37:01Speaker 2But, you know, do you, you know, do you build your own refrigerator out of the various different hoses and refrigerants that they have? Or maybe you just buy one that鈥檚 off the shelf and you can, you know, make sure that things work as they鈥檙e supposed to? I鈥檓 full of weird analogies today. You鈥檙e on it.
00:11:37:02 - 00:11:40:13Speaker 1You鈥檙e on point with the analogies. Yeah, yeah, that鈥檚 a.
00:11:40:13 - 00:12:06:03Speaker 2Good way to simplify it. But yeah, and so, I mean, none of this I think it鈥檚 just it鈥檚 so important to realize what it entails to do what you鈥檙e trying to do correctly and don鈥檛 necessarily take the, you know, I mean, factor it in, but don鈥檛 take wholesale. You know, someone like my experience working for a company that sells an attribution to will talk to people who have done this.
00:12:06:06 - 00:12:24:02Speaker 2That鈥檚 where I try to get my information is talk to people who鈥檝e tried to build out a tool themselves. You know, I don鈥檛 need to tell people to not do that if they鈥檙e talking to somebody who鈥檚 tried to do it because they鈥檝e heard how arduous. And, you know, that鈥檚 the time that they always regret, is like they learned the experience the hard way.
00:12:24:04 - 00:12:46:00Speaker 2So just even being aware of what tools are out there and finding a way to do it that isn鈥檛, you know, we鈥檙e looking out for mops here. In many ways. They have a hard job, they鈥檙e unsung heroes. And I mean, everyone鈥檚 bothering them for, you know, everything that they need, either operationally or reporting wise. So let鈥檚 try to make their lives a little easier.
00:12:46:02 - 00:13:15:19Speaker 1Yeah, Yeah. I mean, so from the master perspective, when you鈥檙e that middle of the road, you have a very intelligent, high performing mops individual and says, Yeah, we can do attribution because I think what the RBI, I mean that鈥檚 what, that鈥檚 what your executives are looking at like what鈥檚, what鈥檚 the value in which that mops person is bringing me in if that most person is just spending a lot of their time building out, let鈥檚 say Marketo engage with custom objects to be able to track each point of the engagement.
00:13:15:21 - 00:13:34:12Speaker 1I mean, yeah, Marketo engaged could has a first party cookie has campaign data is able to look at opportunities like I鈥檝e seen people get really creative they start concatenating fields, you know, within a single field and they say, here鈥檚 every single point in which they鈥檝e engaged with this, but then they have to extract that and say, okay, here鈥檚 all this.
00:13:34:19 - 00:14:07:24Speaker 1So the I rely on that it鈥檚 actually diminishing rather than going out and buying a tool because they鈥檝e spent all their time on that rather than focusing on some of these other things. And it鈥檚 not again, it鈥檚 not to take away from that, but I think that鈥檚 some of the stress that you see within like LinkedIn of like, well, attribution model didn鈥檛 work for us and it鈥檚 like, yeah, because you put so much time and money into trying to build it yourself and it didn鈥檛 work out because you, that person had other responsibilities, other things to do or that person left and now someone else was left with it.
00:14:07:28 - 00:14:11:17Speaker 1And they can鈥檛, they don鈥檛 know how that鈥檚 engineered and that鈥檚 just really challenging.
00:14:11:20 - 00:14:33:11Speaker 2Yeah. And that tool was, I mean marketing automation, tool, CRM, they, they have their lane that they鈥檙e really good at the sweet spot of how you use the product that you can, you know, veer off that main lane and you know, get on some rocky terrain and you know, and then do you know, with creativity and resourcefulness, some stuff.
00:14:33:13 - 00:15:02:07Speaker 2Another weird way to visualize this is I was at a hotel recently and I didn鈥檛 want to leave my room to get food. The room service menu look terrible. I had a left over really tasty burger that I had, but I had no way to heat it. So I actually use the water heater, heat it up repeatedly to boiling point water, put that inside the ice cooler thing you get, you know, and then created like a steam bath thing beneath the left.
00:15:02:10 - 00:15:05:24Speaker 2So anyway, I was very proud of myself to have done this. Yeah.
00:15:05:26 - 00:15:06:07Speaker 1You should.
00:15:06:10 - 00:15:29:03Speaker 2But that was a really crappy way to heat a burger, basically. Yeah, I could do it. But, like, that鈥檚 kind of I feel what you鈥檙e doing when you鈥檙e trying to use a CRM tool or a marketing automation tool to answer attribution. Like it鈥檚 rewarding to figure out. And it invaluable certainly in some ways to say, okay, we鈥檝e really stretched, you know, to the limits of what we鈥檙e able to do with this.
00:15:29:09 - 00:15:46:24Speaker 2We feel we are getting, you know, 100% of the value out of this, so much so that we know exactly where the tool ends and where some other tool that we may want to get begins. So I absolutely would never discourage someone from assuming it doesn鈥檛 take too much time away from them and actually achieving their business goals.
00:15:46:24 - 00:15:48:17Speaker 2You know, learning is important.
00:15:48:19 - 00:15:51:07Speaker 1Let鈥檚 say that like early, early stage do that.
00:15:51:14 - 00:15:51:25Speaker 2Yeah, like.
00:15:51:29 - 00:16:18:17Speaker 1These days I figured I鈥檇 get that stuff rolling. But when you start realizing that, realizing the complexity of it, think of the ROI on it and to kind of put a bow tie on on that, like for Andy here, like he should have just downloaded the Uber Eats app and disorder, whatever, he wanted it right? And like, but same thing for B2B people like go out and buy Marketo measure and just fill in the gap there, right?
00:16:18:17 - 00:16:26:12Speaker 1Rather than trying to build this out and have have a soggy burger, right. Like it鈥檚 like, what do you do with that?
00:16:26:14 - 00:16:28:09Speaker 2So it鈥檚 like.
00:16:28:12 - 00:16:29:12Speaker 1Was that.
00:16:29:15 - 00:16:34:04Speaker 2Like homemade attribution that the soggy burger of B2B or something like that?
00:16:34:09 - 00:17:00:15Speaker 1Yeah, I鈥檓 going to parentheses, maybe I鈥檒l send you it reads, I鈥檒l send you $5 every time you use it in a conversation. A soggy burger. And then so the next step, which, you know, so like the mid step is often what we see with true SMB, right? You got some funding thing from organizations or you鈥檙e big enough to where you鈥檙e able to invest into an aspiration tool.
00:17:00:18 - 00:17:21:20Speaker 1And then we have this this enterprise and I and, and for those listening, I fully realize that this is a massive jump. Right. Right. I want to acknowledge that like SMB to like enterprise owned companies that we can be thinking of like Fortune 100 type companies. But there鈥檚 a huge shift in what鈥檚 happening on that front as well.
00:17:21:26 - 00:17:48:19Speaker 1And I think that鈥檚 why we鈥檝e produced the product. Marketo Measure Ultimate, and that鈥檚 truly owning the data and allowing to allowing your team to report on it and the source of truth. And what I mean by that, and that鈥檚 this is the major jump with SMB to enterprise is the way I鈥檓 using Enterprise, which is like Fortune 100 as SMB.
00:17:48:27 - 00:18:12:00Speaker 1Your source of truth is Salesforce. And that鈥檚 the beauty of Marketo measure is because all of the data and you can report within Salesforce Enterprise and these Fortune 100 companies, source of truth becomes a BI tool because you鈥檙e no longer as your data solely as Salesforce and your marketing automation platform. Your source of data is living in multiple data warehouses and becomes.
00:18:12:01 - 00:18:13:27Speaker 2A department basically. Yeah.
00:18:13:29 - 00:18:37:20Speaker 1Exactly. You have data engineers. This is why we have data engineers and data architects is because you鈥檙e not just managing the data warehouse of Salesforce or the data warehouse of Marketo. You鈥檙e now managing the data warehouse of all things that of your data, and that becomes really cumbersome. So if you haven鈥檛 done the steps that we鈥檝e talked about building up to this, that that leap is even harder.
00:18:37:23 - 00:19:11:19Speaker 2And often happens out of sequence. Like, you know, you may get access to a BI tool even if as an SMB company, Microsoft so generously often includes power BI with with dynamics licenses and as well. Okay, cool. You鈥檝e got this like, you know, and I may have used this analogy earlier in a previous call, but like I always like to say, like, you know, you got your HDTV, but you don鈥檛 have your Apple TV to plug any content into or, you know, whatever cable box service provider that you鈥檙e using.
00:19:11:21 - 00:19:41:02Speaker 2So it鈥檚 it鈥檚 convenient that you get access to pieces of that infrastructure and you can start to use them earlier on because, you know, as I mean, basically everything鈥檚 getting more advanced. Nothing鈥檚 getting simpler as far as like technology goes. So what is today a enterprise by, you know, data science initiative? Data Lake could eventually be like an SMB version just maybe like a more simplified version that doesn鈥檛 take, you know, 50 people to be at the helm of in order to operate.
00:19:41:04 - 00:20:13:21Speaker 2So having I think this is kind of what you were getting to is like being able to, as best as you can kind of anticipate in future proof for that. Like do you want a tool that鈥檚 going to last for the next six months? Do you want something that鈥檚 going to work for the next, you know, handful of years and most crucially, you know, not require you to re-implement and like start from a blank slate of data every time you do that, always something to look into with any tool that you鈥檙e examining, no matter what you鈥檙e trying to solve, it鈥檚 like you don鈥檛 want to buy a tool, you know, for the next, you know,
00:20:13:25 - 00:20:24:19Speaker 2short runway until you reach your goal. You want to be able to continue with that and, you know, focus on other things because other things are going to get more complex. Do you want to have your one thing hopefully locked down for a period of time?
00:20:24:21 - 00:20:43:28Speaker 1Yeah, we use the analogy in maps of, you know, as you set up your Marketo instance or as you buy a tool like measure, you know, if you were to win the lottery and leave and go live in the Bahamas the rest of your life or wherever you want to be, if someone the next person that comes in can they pick up where you left off?
00:20:44:01 - 00:21:04:08Speaker 1And with attribution, that鈥檚 really hard. That鈥檚 all. If it鈥檚 all homegrown right at that position, just ups and leaves because they got a better deal or whatever. That鈥檚 the beauty actually, of buying a measure, because I hear I hear this a lot and I鈥檓 sure you hear this like big Fortune 100 companies have really intelligent, intelligent people everywhere.
00:21:04:08 - 00:21:21:22Speaker 1But like, you know, they have these intelligent people that are data scientists and say, well, we were building our own attribution model. We鈥檙e doing we鈥檙e built, we鈥檙e slicing the data and we鈥檙e able to attribute and do all this. It鈥檚 like, that鈥檚 really awesome, that鈥檚 great, and I鈥檓 sure you can, but if you leave, does the next person know the formulas behind these things?
00:21:21:22 - 00:21:49:26Speaker 1Can they do that? And so that鈥檚 actually the beauty of a measure tool because it it streamlines and flattens all that data. Normally uses it to how we how measure processes, attribution based upon our own attribution models. And what you would define as like the customer can define an attribute small as well and then spits that out. And now that lives in your data lake, now you can do whatever you want with it.
00:21:49:26 - 00:22:02:18Speaker 1But now, like it鈥檚 done a lot of the heavy lifting for you. So again, from an R y perspective, you鈥檙e not having to pay someone to go do all that tool does all that for you. And that鈥檚 that鈥檚 normalized. So like it鈥檚 it鈥檚 simple, right?
00:22:02:21 - 00:22:32:03Speaker 2And for me and this is you know I always like to invite you know, others I mean everyone鈥檚 different here, but I don鈥檛 feel there鈥檚 too much pride in being able to solve for attribution by building your own tool. Like there are other cool things you can use your intellect and your capabilities for rather than basically having to I mean, it鈥檚 it鈥檚 not the most glamorous data set to have to collect because you鈥檙e chasing, you know, all the different various ad networks.
00:22:32:03 - 00:22:52:14Speaker 2Like it鈥檚 it鈥檚 frankly a lot of grunt work that you probably don鈥檛 want to have to do. And if you were to build out manually, you would have to do so. I, I had some other point here that probably had some really ridiculous analogy built into it, too. But it may come back to me. But yeah, agreed. Yeah.
00:22:52:18 - 00:23:13:09Speaker 2And sure. Oh yeah. Here鈥檚 the thing. Your point around like when people come and leave, companies mean that happens all the time. You know, I say I鈥檓 a lifer for 51黑料不打烊. I feel that way. Who knows what鈥檚 going to happen? I think there鈥檚 a karmic element to choosing the wrong tool and then having and then leaving that company and then having somebody come in and have to clean up your mess.
00:23:13:09 - 00:23:31:06Speaker 2I think like eventually that may catch up to you in the next life. So for, you know, good, good cosmic housekeeping like maybe set things up in a way when you do depart that the person who comes in doesn鈥檛 hate your guts and, you know, doesn鈥檛 want to punch you in the face if you ever run into them at like a marketing conference.
00:23:31:08 - 00:24:07:13Speaker 1That鈥檚 right. Yeah. They鈥檒l find you. That鈥檚 right. At some point you鈥檙e going to cross paths. Yeah. And I think that鈥檚 the value of, again, this maturity of mega-corporations. Salesforce is not it鈥檚 not a bash on Salesforce or or Dynamics or CRM. But what we鈥檙e seeing is a shift in how data is being managed and sales is managed in a CRM that鈥檚 a sales platform and that鈥檚 a limited data set, whereas, you know, web based tech data could live in a completely different system, right?
00:24:07:15 - 00:24:43:02Speaker 1So all that first party cookie information, all your ad information lives in the ad platforms and you鈥檙e having to, you know, export that or pull that in through a connection like it鈥檚 a heavy lift and it鈥檚 a lot to manage. And yes, you you may already have people managing that data, but to have a system that, again, can streamline that and then easily extract that from a snowflake to put into whatever you want and visualize into the the, the bi tool, Power BI or Tableau or whatever you鈥檙e using so that your executives can see that data is crucial.
00:24:43:08 - 00:24:54:22Speaker 1And again, if you if you鈥檝e set yourself up for success and whoever else that comes in, it鈥檚 buying the right tool for that rather than trying to do all this homegrown stuff.
00:24:54:25 - 00:25:15:05Speaker 2And I think you coming from your experience on the maps, I can probably speak to this with personal experience, but I from from what I鈥檝e seen and heard, you tend to notice rather quickly when you start to use a tool for something it wasn鈥檛 designed to be used for. And this is something that is not like, you know, I you know, I鈥檓 proud of myself for reheating that burger once.
00:25:15:11 - 00:25:46:18Speaker 2If I had to make, you know, meals for my entire family using that methodology, which is basically the equivalent of having to gather marketing data across all your different channels, times 100, and you鈥檙e going to notice that very, very quickly. And and it鈥檚 you know, we always want to think of this in terms of ROI, like don鈥檛 put yourself through that headache, like recognize and hopefully you鈥檙e talking to, you know, when you鈥檙e when you鈥檙e buying tools, getting all the right information, talking to honest salespeople for that matter, to say, hey, you know, we鈥檙e proud of what we鈥檝e built here.
00:25:46:24 - 00:26:12:22Speaker 2CRM is awesome, like you said, for, you know, sales management and customer resource management, all that kind of stuff. But don鈥檛 buy this because you鈥檙e looking to do you know this, don鈥檛 buy it because you鈥檙e looking to do that. And we鈥檙e very frank about that. Like do not buy measure because you鈥檙e looking to do, you know, ABM based programmatic ad execution and have us like, you know, serve as like an orchestration tool to find like new accounts.
00:26:12:22 - 00:26:40:15Speaker 2Like we have a little bit of that functionality because why not? But it鈥檚 not why you should buy it and don鈥檛 buy us. In fact, hopefully everyone can be held at least, you know, I sleep decently well at night. Hopefully everyone can be held to that standard where, you know, as and I don鈥檛 envy often the position that customers are in having to delineate and and you know, figure out in a land of you know misinformation sometimes like how to actually do this correctly.
00:26:40:15 - 00:26:57:12Speaker 2Thankfully there are message boards, there are forums, there are industry events. There are things where you can learn from other people, learn from their advice and their mistakes. And that鈥檚 what I always try to listen to as well, is like, you know, what can you do on your own? Because me as a DIY person, I love that kind of stuff.
00:26:57:12 - 00:27:12:16Speaker 2Like some people are just that鈥檚 the mind, that鈥檚 the mindset they have. It鈥檚 like there鈥檚 a sense of pride, even if it鈥檚 just as good as if they bought it. Like it feels good to have built that. I want to know when you can do that and encourage that, but when you should absolutely save your sanity and and not do that.
00:27:12:16 - 00:27:27:23Speaker 2And and you know, regardless of the tool that you buy, I at least don鈥檛 want to ruin your life by giving you bad advice or not giving you advice at all that will result in you ruining your life, at least as far as you know, that 9 to 5 goes.
00:27:27:26 - 00:28:12:02Speaker 1Yeah, it鈥檚 a good plug for our our previous evangelist talk where we really got into the discussion of marketing metrics versus attribution. And there鈥檚 a big difference in that. And not to get confused in those things and how to really scale on that. To kind of wrap us up, one of the things I think is really vital to teams, no matter what size you are, is to have someone dedicated to these data, to this type of data, and whether that is you are big enough to afford someone to be on staff and to do that, or that is to get 51黑料不打烊 Consulting Services or to get any of our partners to be involved consistently with
00:28:12:02 - 00:28:37:15Speaker 1your data to help you understand that. Right. The beauty of hiring access or a partner is that the right partner would be able to understand attribution from the get go and continue to work with you to help and mature you along that journey. Right? Rather than just finding a partner who鈥檚 going to like, just implement and leave you right?
00:28:37:22 - 00:28:49:19Speaker 1That鈥檚 not what you want. When you start doing attribution, you want to have a partner that鈥檚 able to jump in and say, Yeah, we鈥檒l help you get this up and running, but we鈥檙e thinking of the long haul. How do we continue to work with you and help you understand this attribution?
00:28:49:22 - 00:29:15:08Speaker 2And that鈥檚 why I鈥檓 extremely involved in partner relationships, because they鈥檙e effectively my teammates and I rely on them. Similarly, the customers rely on them because I want to actually hear from them how things work in the real world. And that鈥檚 the, you know, maybe the maybe that鈥檚 even the greater value that partners can offer is like being that like consultant consultative filter of like cool.
00:29:15:08 - 00:29:31:29Speaker 2You know, you鈥檝e heard this tool can do a hundred things, but really of those things it does these five things really well. And that鈥檚 why we want to care about this. And I know exactly like, you know, if I putting together a strategy, you want to probably as a manager more than anything else, you want to have know your own.
00:29:32:00 - 00:29:49:25Speaker 2You want to have a brain on your shoulders, you want to have good instinct, but you want to be able to also listen really well. And the most successful people I鈥檝e seen are ones who find the right partners and really listen to them and help them strategically guide how they build out their marketing technologies and their reporting stacks and all of that.
00:29:49:25 - 00:30:15:17Speaker 2And I鈥檓 proud to say that every single partner that I work alongside, you know, I would just as soon invite them out like, hey, like, go find a cousin, you know, find a beer with this customer and just tell them what things are like and like, sell your experience and your stories and like, you know, your anecdotes and like, smart people will figure out what they need to do from there.
00:30:15:17 - 00:30:43:22Speaker 2But like, you know, be humble enough to ask for help and opinions and hubris gets you nowhere that gets you in the wrong direction. So, yeah, like keep an open mind. I try to do that every day. I鈥檓 lucky that I get to, you know, work for and sell a product where I can be proud, that I can be transparent about what it does and what it does not do, and and get to hear great stories about how it works for people and get to hear also how it doesn鈥檛 work for people, what we need to do to fix it, and what we need to recommend to our customers that they can make you know,
00:30:43:26 - 00:31:05:20Speaker 2they can trust us when we say that this does work and this does not work, like hopefully, hopefully anybody who鈥檚 in sales gets they have no less than what I鈥檓 describing as their kind of their bar for integrity. But yeah, yeah, humans are good at figuring humans have good bullshit detectors, so the attention to yours is just that we trust that.
00:31:05:22 - 00:31:36:00Speaker 1So in conclusion, just don鈥檛. Don鈥檛 fall into this soggy burger effect. Don鈥檛 fall into, Hey, we鈥檙e going to build this and we鈥檙e going to try to do everything ourselves. And and then you just end up with a really soggy bun and half cooked burger like, ask the questions, talk to people around you, talk to our partners of whatever it is and learn, you know, is this the right product for me so that I can have the best burger possible, right?
00:31:36:00 - 00:31:52:27Speaker 1Like don鈥檛 don鈥檛 settle for trying to do it all yourself because the are why it might not be there. You might not really enjoy the outcome of it and it鈥檚 just not worth it. So thanks for everyone who鈥檚 listening to evangelist talks. Thanks, Andy, for being on. Really appreciate the time today.
00:31:52:29 - 00:31:55:23Speaker 2Always a pleasure going to the next one.
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